Transcript: GenCon TV Panel: GenConversations Roundtable Part 2: Mental Health and Socializing Distantly

WITH TIME STAMPS AND SPEAKER IDENTIFICATION

Source video here: https://youtu.be/DawnoaNEygg

1. GenCon TV Host: Derek Guder (DEREK) - GenCon

Speakers (clockwise from top left):

1. Hawke Robinson (HAWKE):  "Grandfather of Therapeutic Gaming" founder and Executive Director of the non-profit RPG Research www.rpgresearch.com and President of the for-profit RPG Therapeutics LLC www.rpg.llc.
2. Adam Davis (DAVIS): Game To Grow www.gametogrow.org
3. Adam Johns (JOHNS): Game To Grow www.gametogrow.org
4. Rachel Kowert (RACHEL): Take This www.takethis.org

0:00 DEREK:

TODO

hello everybody thank you for sticking around after table tanks I hope you enjoyed that show we are back for

0:06

another joke on round table and we are joined this week rejoined this week by Hawk Robinson from RPG research and RPG

0:14

therapeutics the founder president and recreational therapists he's got a background in research psychology

0:21

computer science neuroscience there's a long list of things here hot that you are apparently great at so let's just

0:28

boil it down to you do a whole bunch of things and you have been very nice to kind of be on our show multiple times if

0:35

you ever multiple topics so thank you again for coming back out we also have Adam Davis from game to grow where's a

0:41

masters of education with a focus on drama therapy he's one of the founders and the executive director of game to

0:48

grow a non-profit based out of Seattle that uses D&D most of us are using games

0:53

most notably D&D in therapeutic social skill groups for kids and teens we also

0:59

have Adam Jones who is the other founder and executive director and is a licensed

1:05

Marriage and Family Therapist game to grow serves around 80 youth per week in

1:11

game based groups which have been transitioned to online games during our

1:17

current situation I think we were just talking about how you want a game night but not a work game does it work and

1:24

finally dr. Rachel cowork from take this is a research psychologist and the

1:30

research director if take this the first mental health nonprofits form to work

1:36

specifically in the gaming industry and gaming communities you think this is I think really become a staple of a lot of

1:44

conventions running a lot of like quiet rooms and stuff like that so it's great to also have you here on that you've

1:50

been studying games and gamers for about 10 years now is that right that's correct

1:56

you we are we always surprising you with something new or do you have us all kind

2:01

of figured out by now always surprised but you know there is a consistent community is consistent and I

2:07

think we're going to talk about that today well I mean you need you need people to play games with it

2:13

so that tends to be a pretty common element so we had an episode before that

2:22

we can put a link in chat if I can dig it up in a little bit but we had an episode before where we talked about

2:27

general social distancing and you know well-being basically and we had more

2:34

material than we could fit into an hour so we figured it'd be nice to have all

2:40

of you back again maybe a little bit pick up where we left off but I also think that enough time has passed since

2:47

then that a lot of things a lot of emotions a lot of mental states have

2:52

changed so I figure it's also worth revisiting and kind of summarizing a lot of our what we covered last time which

3:01

to kind of go through that you know we talked about the repercussions of social isolation and I think that Hawk and

3:09

Rachel particular had a lot to say about that do either of you kind of want to pick that up and and summarize the high

3:16

points of what happens when people are isolated I mean social isolation and

3:24

loneliness are associated with negative psychological and physical repercussions increased stress increases depression

3:31

increased anxiety poor decision-making you get into other of the physical

3:38

cardiovascular disease you're at a higher risk so we want to try even though we're social distancing to not be

3:44

socially isolated yeah and that's the

3:49

key thing is though you know it's also the difference between alone and lonely and and that has a significant

3:58

neurological and physiological impact when somebody's experiencing loneliness for a prolonged period so helping people

4:05

through a paradigm of well just because you're not able to be touchy-feely with

4:10

all these people it doesn't necessarily mean that you are you have to go into a

4:16

deeper funk and such you know I mean it's not easy to stop it but working on

4:22

adaptive behaviors and thoughts and such that can help get changing situations - to be able to

4:29

adjust to these as much as possible so resilience helping people develop as much resilience as possible and you know

4:37

the moods have changed I was talking before you on the air about it was much more about the the worry the anxiety and

4:43

the depression now I'm starting to see as I'm getting calls for halfway houses and such a little bit more of the

4:49

conflict and the anger and the cabin fever stuff kind of the pressures

4:55

building all comes from the same place but we're kind of going through a second

5:01

phase here doesn't belong social I feel

5:06

like we're kind of out of the clear and present danger phase where you know

5:11

everyone's immediate thought is like we need to be safe we need to take care of ourselves and I feel like we've kind of

5:16

now moved into a space where it's a little bit more about like I don't know

5:22

when things are gonna go back to normal or you know I don't know how anything is

5:27

gonna be the same again or or even just like I don't know how I can spend more time with these people that I'm trapped

5:32

in this house with and and that's something we've actually been able to help so for example being trapped in the

5:39

house at these halfway houses so these are some of these are for drug rehabs some of these are for juveniles some of

5:44

these are for prisons right now they're going from parole halfway house processed and you know you're put

5:50

together with roommates that are you know you didn't get to pick and a lot of resources are shared and you're on top

5:57

of each other and normally the key thing is to get work and get out of there and that's a real problem right now so one

6:05

of the things that's been nice is I've been able to start using the RPG bus and trailers again because I'm able to pull

6:10

up and this is less about the accessibility it's just about get them out of the house and in a prior quiet

6:15

private place to talk away from all the chaos and stress it's just out on the sidewalk they're in the bus but it gives

6:22

them a little bit of a bubble away from that stress and that's been really helpful night it we keep discovering new

6:29

things all the time like when we did the MDA camp we didn't realize they would use tabletop games to recharge

6:34

themselves before they went back into the LARP and keep doing that a three-hour session never thought of that it just

6:40

worked out same thing with this we put the trailers for accessibility issues we were having and things but now this

6:46

whole other situation is revealed Oh the portable quiet rooms to get away from being trapped with your family and

6:52

non family and just a different physical space gives a feeling of relief I mean

7:00

literally people sit down and go as they sink into our sofa and stuff that we

7:05

have on the trailers and the atoms have been that you remember the first trailer it's got those nice companies oh yeah

7:10

it's awesome it's really really cool and having I mean I can imagine not just

7:17

having a separate space not only a separated space from those that you may

7:22

be spending a lot of time with but also a little bit of a new space of being being able to be in in something that

7:28

feels a little different than then your bedroom or your living room or your bathroom the places that you've been

7:35

trying to escape into in here in your small maybe small household area so I

7:41

can imagine that that makes a huge difference to be able to have that space yeah right our brains crave novelty right we've got these big frontal

7:47

cortexes a for social rules so our brains aren't getting exercise if we're not doing a lot of social stuff and so

7:54

that's kind of like sitting around on the couch and going a couch potato and we're not getting to socially engage and

8:00

we crave novelty you know and those of us are ADHD really cricket more so but

8:06

but it's a human experience to some degree for that novelty and when you know we want routine and we want a

8:13

little bit of novelty where we feel safe and so yeah it's been really interesting this whole other facet of these these

8:19

mobile facilities we've never thought of before I'm glad Davis did you have a yeah I

8:25

want to jump in on I was gonna say that that that just showed up in my Facebook memories recently Hawk when you were

8:31

doing your you're more wide tours with you every year and I remember the first

8:38

time I saw and seeing how much you you have done with it since then has been tremendous that the the time that we saw

8:44

it you drove obviously we made it like a parking lot somewhere in West Seattle yeah well yeah get our tour of that bus

8:51

that's pretty fantastic yeah the bus and two trailers so we have

8:56

three mobile rooms and you know if Gen Con still happens we're hoping to be bringing that over there and everything

9:02

to show folks so one thing I was gonna build on what we were talking about just a moment ago was this idea of what sort

9:09

of to build on what Hawk was saying earlier around first phase was to react to the growing stress of will I get sick

9:16

and now this idea of not just going back to normal but what will normal be like

9:21

now and one thing I mentioned last time we chatted was about grief that we might be feeling grief and the process of

9:28

going back to life is going to be very different and we have to sort of say

9:33

goodbye to at least temporarily to what going to a restaurant might have looked like going to a movie going to the

9:40

theater my background is in is in theater and I worked at theaters for many years Adams wife works in the

9:45

theater world as well and that that culture will change dramatically one of

9:51

my favorite things to do is travel and that will dramatically change other than my road trips which I love to do and

9:56

always have but airplane trips to conferences and things like that will always be my expectation is it will

10:02

always be somewhat different either in the way that everyone is now at a higher level of alert but also just in the

10:09

nature of when will conferences come back where we can play tables of games with strangers and not have to have hand

10:16

sanitizer everywhere it's gonna be a different world it's not like flying through the air was was too stressful

10:23

already or anything too Pleasant too calm I was a mask where before it was you know never was cool

10:32

disease control Adams the ultimate mask

10:38

hipster it definitely I think a lot of the space that people are in right now

10:45

is in how do i navigate this being a part of my routine what does that look

10:52

like and i think i think a fair number of people and myself maybe included are have been holding our breath saying like

10:59

i just need to make it through another week i just need to make it through another month and then things are gonna get better and and things will get better but there's

11:06

also a high now to get to a place where you you're finding ways to fill in the needs that

11:12

you have and the places where you where you have those as Adam was watching earlier need to you have a game night

11:18

where I'm just hanging out with my friends and previously that was maybe easier to accomplish and easier to do

11:26

and now you're having a step a little bit out of your comfort zone to set something like that up by either the selection of the games that you can

11:32

actually play with in that setting or in the dedication of the time that everybody's going to make and in setting

11:38

up their camera and setting up their computer to to be able to play those games together and I think those steps

11:44

are gonna be that much more important now when we are really unsure about what the what the future is gonna hold and

11:50

how much longer this is really going to go on that efforts gonna be really important we all have to become experts

11:57

in troubleshooting our microphones or our cameras or having backups that we

12:02

can just default back to you and be like okay that's fine I have the shiny new microphone but it's not working right now you just go this other one and we

12:09

will be perfectly fine and a lot of us are newly lonely in in the midst of

12:14

kovat in the midst of lockdown right we we had more of a thriving social life

12:20

and now we're newly adapting to what it's like to be to experience loneliness but there is loneliness has been a

12:27

chronic sort of pandemic for a long time so there are a lot of a lot of us who

12:32

have been experiencing loneliness in a way that is already affecting our physiological health our neurological

12:39

health and so on and now it's gotten so much worse in the midst of the the

12:45

lockdown a lot of the participants in the game to grow groups we work with we're already very chronically isolated

12:50

and chronically lonely and now they are under lockdown we've had a couple of jokes around being stuck at home with

12:56

some families um but I have groups that we end on a spotlight were you shine a

13:02

spotlight to other people and some of them are saying thank you so much for letting me play with people and enjoy

13:08

social contact cuz I have sisters that are killing me and just that little bit

13:15

of you know regular social contact right now is so so important to the midst of this some for some of us

13:21

than others that's something that we touched on a little bit last time I think about because we talked about the

13:27

repercussions of not having social contact and the importance of it but then we also did talk a little bit about

13:33

like the what kind of social contact is best and I I remember the joke if I was

13:39

like and you're just waving at your mailman's not enough and you or no no like even even that like that is that is

13:46

recognition of someone else's humanity and their recognition of yours and that's really important so does anybody

13:53

kind of want to reiterate or revisit any of those points just to really drive some of that home to folks like what

13:59

kind of contact is enough is there some that's better than others well I would

14:05

say about the mailman a funny thing happened to me the other day the Amazon delivery man came and he dropped

14:10

something off and I opened the doors he was walking away but I didn't realize he had another package so we were like I

14:16

don't know four feet from each other we were like oh okay okay like I don't know

14:23

where I'm supposed to be in relation to strangers anymore and I think for me

14:29

maintaining social contact is you know being further from the Amazon delivery man but also maintaining zoom clay time

14:39

right so I play Dungeons and Dragons with Adam and Adam here and some other colleagues of mine and we have been far

14:45

more consistent in playing D&D over the quarantine period than I say we were a couple months before and I think it's

14:52

just we all realized that this playfulness this frivolity this moment of stepping away from this everyday

14:58

stress and constant news cycle and living with our families and never leaving I love my family but come on me

15:05

with other people has been so important and I think it's important for a lot of

15:10

us whether it's a D&D group or tabletop simulator or playing cards on zoom' with your neighbor having that moment of just

15:17

something fun for the sake of being fun has been really important for me anyway

15:24

yeah and it's so important to note the difference between passive leisure time

15:30

and active leisure time and active doesn't--it's they have to be physical but it's the engaging and doing something versus just

15:38

passively taking it used to be just veggie in front of the television now it's you know streaming or you know

15:44

memes or whatever but just kind of passively taking that all in research

15:49

has shown for decades that that approach of consuming media and such is really

15:55

unhelpful it actually increases your cortisol and stress levels

16:00

you don't recharge right you come home from a long stressful day on the pack you know before this but you come home stressful day you have vegging from the

16:07

television and you don't get a good recovery versus turn the TV off read a

16:13

book or play chess game with a friend or go for a walk or whatever those kinds of

16:19

more active engaging activities are much more recuperative both physically and

16:25

neurologically and and emotionally and socially and so it's very important that

16:30

I'm learning a lot of people even before all this started we know atoms do as well a lot of

16:37

high-risk and at-risk populations that they don't have an unrecognizable you

16:42

know I've got my bias here but most of them have very few recreational activities right they'll be this in this

16:48

passive in taken media substance dependency whether it's Kathy

16:55

excessive caffeine energy drinks or pot or something more hardcore but it but

17:00

it's more than just medicinal it's controlling their life and their identity or you know part affiliation

17:07

with gang or other groups that are you know on healthful and maladaptive and and then that just gets exacerbated in

17:13

these situations and they're not allowed to go around they can't get out there and they didn't have other activities

17:19

and so really trying to find these engaging activities is so important for

17:27

your health but one really big problem with these high-risk populations is a lot of them don't have there's million

17:33

people to this day who do not have internet do not have smartphones do not have their own computers or tablets and

17:40

we work with you know thousands per year who are in that situation they rely on the schools libraries and community

17:45

centers are all shut down so if you happen to that you can get access right now and

17:51

you're seeing the stream you do have resources even in small towns most of the schools have the ability for you to

17:58

check out they're being really flexible to check out laptops too to check out

18:03

different devices to help you make that connection so I know a lot people been saying oh my goodness hardware's gotten

18:09

so expensive because the supply chains broken and demand and all this but for those who really didn't have money to

18:14

begin with that's not even an option anyway but the good news is a lot of

18:19

these schools and stuff they've got a surplus right now some of them of these devices that you they just need people

18:26

to reach out because most people don't know so if you know somebody who's in a situation like that whether they're elderly young anything in-between

18:32

whatever the reason and they don't have a good means of connecting you can get

18:38

ahold of the schools even though you can't go to classes so in many of these cases the the administrative staff can

18:43

be contacted and if you're in their district and such you can get these resources pretty quickly they've really

18:48

expedited the process and some of the community centers like spark central over here and some of the sister

18:54

organizations in Seattle also have are trying to help get that word out so that people can get these connections and do

19:00

these interactive activities and that includes like smartphones and tablets and stuff and providers are giving away

19:07

free internet if for some of these people to so let me know about those resources I mean kind of as Hawk is

19:14

saying like the the idea the the thing that we're really trying to aim towards is more efficient recharging time and

19:21

more efficient effective socialization time and so because it was so much

19:28

easier to acquire before we spent so much of time you know talking to somebody in passing while I was going to

19:35

work or at the coffee shop or things along those lines that we don't have anymore now you have to be much more

19:42

intentional and much more thoughtful about what kind of time are you actually spending with your with your socialization or with your free time

19:48

that you have it and how can I be more thoughtful and engaged I think we talked

19:53

about this a little bit in the previous talk but how can I be really reflective of the practice that I'm doing and how

20:01

it is affecting me personally I think one of the things that's that's really coming up for a lot of people now

20:06

is that people are struggling and were struggling and now it's really spilling

20:15

out and do a lot of other parts of your life as it starts to get more out of control for you and so being able to

20:22

really reflect really think about when I do socialization with other people

20:27

whether it's it's over zoom even over a phone call even over texting thinking

20:33

about how you felt beforehand and thinking about how you feel afterwards and really having that that almost in

20:39

take out take a survey of your of your own feelings for those experiences is

20:46

going to give you a lot to go on be reflective in that in that practice and use that to guide the the

20:51

experiences that you are trying to set up for yourself in the future if I know that I had a great time hanging out with

20:58

my talking to my friend on the phone while both of us watched the same Netflix show like man I gotta set that

21:05

up again I got to make sure that we we schedule another time to make something like that happen and it might seem silly

21:10

it might seem like a small thing but those small things are what is really gonna help hold you together and get you

21:18

through the difficult time that this this is gonna be maybe for a long time we talked about that I think anecdotally

21:24

a couple times like I was talking about how I did that with my wife when she was

21:30

in Ireland yeah there are times that we just were on a video chat doing whatever it is we were doing and there right now

21:36

and then we would talk to each other and that at least gave us a feeling of being in the same space and I have definitely

21:42

found that as as time has gone on you know it's proved me to more consciously reach out to people and just

21:50

you know I've sent a few more texts of like hey what's up how's it going or I found a thing and I thought of you you

21:57

know so like sometimes that's just send some something on Twitter sometimes was texting them sometimes is calling but

22:02

you know I've I've had more friends respond back with like you know I'm

22:08

super glad you reached out you know I've been so lonely people haven't reached out or whatever so anything you can do

22:15

to consciously reach out to be you haven't seen in a long time and it could be you're gonna be ambitious

22:20

you're gonna set up a game night it could also just be let's just hang out and if we game then fantastic if not we

22:26

at least hung out and talked which is still incredibly valuable right now one

22:33

of the things that I've been thinking a lot about this in in my own struggles with loneliness as an introvert who

22:39

likes people is really also thinking about the way that this impacts the

22:45

clients that we have and I literally when you were Rachel talking about the the FedEx men the UPS man came to drop

22:53

off a package at my house and I opened the door as he was going back to his truck to yell thank you at him because

22:59

of our conversation the last time we did this I was like I'm not just gonna nod at him I'm gonna yell at him so he will

23:05

know that his presence matters to me um and that's really what what it comes down to is it's there's really three

23:12

different layers to it one is just being noticed and realizing have someone else

23:17

seeing that you're there the second layer to that is to have your uniqueness recognized and then the third layer to

23:25

that is knowing that your presence actually matters and your contributions are valid and valuable and I think

23:30

that's really what we're aspiring to and we have always aspired to is to recognize the sort of genuine nature of

23:37

someone else's valuable humanity but even in the midst of lockdown we're all

23:42

farther behind than that but a lot of us are just looking out the window hoping to be seen by someone else and getting

23:49

to that stage where we can feel like our presence actually matters and that someone actually cares about us is

23:54

really what we what we want to do which is you know obviously so many of us love Dungeons & Dragons because it's so easy

24:00

to do that and feel like you can have an impact on a group of people we can

24:06

create something together so now we have a shared sense of memory around what this game that we played I played in a

24:11

game I think it was yesterday that Adam Jones ran and like I keep thinking about it and I keep wanting to message Adam

24:18

about it or you know and it's one of these things which now that we have this sort of shared language and shared culture I can be like inside joke

24:25

toss it out and all I need is like a thumbs up emoji to know that we have this Rick mission point that we've seen you know

24:31

I've been playing DD with Rachel for I don't know over a year now two years I've lost track all time blends together

24:38

now um but you know we have we have a sense of history and that knowing that I

24:43

can contribute something that someone else can see and appreciate really is what gives us a sense of meaning and

24:50

purpose and I think that I advocate that anyone who's feeling particularly lonely reaches out to Hawke because I know that

24:56

they have amazing resources right now for people not doing therapeutic work but who are just doing come play with us

25:03

be in community and I think it's really important that we do as much as we can to get to that third layer of social

25:09

recognition as well as talk I think you have a whole lot of resources just around helping people to interact on

25:17

online for for our PG stuff - I yeah I've been - I've been involved with

25:22

gaming since role-playing games since 1977 and actually online since 1979 when it was

25:27

ARPANET DARPA net before it was the Internet and then before the web so by

25:33

the way I'm going to be grandfather in a few weeks so yes like I was talking to

25:49

Germans on the BBS back in 79 that later on turned out to be hackers that took out the University of Berkeley oh my

25:57

goodness but yeah so I've been and I've been in tech forever and and worked for

26:03

companies that were all about virtual experiences and virtual document management and I hadn't I still have a

26:09

company called David a portal that was all about vo W virtual office and workplace and what we noticed that most

26:15

companies is back in the 90s we're doing wrong with the virtual office that

26:20

really came to a head around 2008 2010 in the middle of that financial crisis

26:26

the CEOs of HP and Yahoo and others suddenly started to dismantle their virtual office programs after we're

26:34

making huge inroads in the 90s and early 2000s it saved companies money it improved quality of life it expanded

26:40

your talent pool to be global instead of just local you know you didn't have spent four hours a day in commute time you

26:47

know there are just so many advantages and you know this was our sales pitches because that was our business model and

26:53

it wasn't for everybody but it was for the vast majority of knowledge workers

26:58

certainly and all of a sudden they started dismantling them about ten years ago by by the millions millions of

27:05

people who were allowed to work remotely had those taken away over the last ten years and then we're under this and now

27:12

people are going hey wait a minute the city is the skies are cleared all these other things happily people but

27:18

but going back one of the number-one complaints was especially if like sales people such as missing that touchy-feely

27:24

and water cooler talk with conventions it's the hallway chat hey you hey how

27:30

you doing haven't seen you since blah blah blah just those those those unexpected social things that happen and

27:35

most virtual office stuff all they do is set up work our stuff we set up you have

27:41

a water-cooler chat room either with audio video or just text or you have an area where you're allowed to post hey

27:46

here's my latest mean thing or whatever you know just to get that human not just

27:51

work robot you know Russian for work is you know Robotnik Workers Robotnik robot

27:57

and to not just be a worker robot to be a human being and engage with other human beings and a lot of the online

28:05

programs kind of miss all of that less targeted as social interactions so they

28:10

will set up for an event hey we've got this panel broadcast we've got this presentation but there

28:16

isn't any whole lot of the encouraging free one thing we notice we just did a test a few weeks ago with Zoe Kahn

28:22

testing this new platform and such and one of the things that was interesting to watch is people set up a food and

28:28

beverage room and bars in the chat room in discord and such and they're sitting

28:33

there talking about what they're eating and because I mean if you look at all the food shows that the World Travel

28:39

food shows how do cultures Express and connect socially it's you often over

28:44

dinner and Brit like over food and drink we connect amazingly as humans we're

28:49

missing an awful lot of that in this virtual environment but you're seeing people are starting to do that you know

28:55

this NBC article with the ants and everything they talk about being an anti going nom-nom-nom-nom I eat that watermelon

29:01

and things like that and so even in that Gabe this food thing comes up so so

29:07

trying to think of so we did a little brainstorming in the week you've got this big brainstorm page of when you go

29:13

to a physical convention or any social event like that a party a dance whatever trying to parse through what are all

29:20

those social interactions that you're getting that people are missing when you do at verticals we've got virtual dances

29:25

Second Life has been doing virtual parties for over a decade I mean a lot of people are DJing on Instagram now

29:31

yeah I've been to DJ for 20 years I've done a radio and Internet and all that and and but there is something missing

29:37

versus being a physical party so what else so we're going through those pieces and then what we have to do is start finding you know I've been trying to

29:44

tell my clients you know look at this as a three year transition right when with smash flew happen as a three year thing

29:50

this is going to be a three year transition thing it is not going to whatever the new change is it's going to

29:57

take about three years to work through what that is and and well first I don't

30:02

want people to dwell on that because that's just because otherwise what's

30:12

happy number in the clients who are like it's never going to end right it's what's happening now it will be this way forever we know the only constant is

30:20

change so we know this too will change we don't know what it will be exactly

30:25

but we know it will change and it will kind of restabilized and such and we'll

30:30

get back to whatever until the next thing and looking at it as it's gonna take about three years to kind of let

30:36

the dust clear and resettle and all of that let's plan that way let's let's let's not you know we can't control

30:42

it'll happen but let's at least if we know that it's a little less scary then

30:47

this is going to go on forever it's the end of the world and it will never get better versus okay three years is a long

30:53

time how can I plan and get ready for that you know first focus on today right now and then let's have some

30:59

longitudinal planning and you were talking earlier about the purpose and direction right that's the number one

31:04

predictor for resilience and adjustment is the more clear your purpose and

31:10

direction is the more resilience you're going to be in times of crisis when you hit plateaus or really difficult times or even setbacks

31:17

and failures you will bounce back much better when you have a clear guiding star to get you through all that as well

31:25

as a set of social support a set of routines and a set of as a demand like

31:32

Adam and I like to call it rituals to help you get through some of those things the places where you really can

31:38

grab on to something you really can control something and that might be you know a Saturday game night that might be

31:44

your your ritual of you take a shower every morning those those things are

31:50

gonna be playing a large role in helping you to me make it through this on a on a

31:56

large scale you have to sort of change what your baseline is and change your accessibility to the rituals and

32:04

routines that you need in order to be able to really make it through in and something like this Adam likes to say

32:10

it's a marathon not a sprint and I think that is very much true in this case and

32:15

so tie one thing I want one thing I want to touch on because we were before we

32:21

kind of maybe go into the future or go into details you know we were talking about kind of the important or how

32:27

helpful it is for to reach out to people um and actively connect with them and I

32:34

just wanted to take a moment just to talk about how that works from the other side because I do know that some people

32:40

that I reached out to have been sad that they haven't had more people reach out to them and I just kind of want to maybe talk

32:48

about the I hesitate to call to trap but just the the feeling that you can get

32:53

into that you know not enough people are reaching out to you people aren't as interested in you and I feel that like

33:00

whenever I talk to people like that I just try to remind them that you know you're you're going through a lot the people around you that care about you

33:07

are also going through a lot you know they they probably have plenty of their own concerns that they just have not had

33:15

a chance to call and share with you but do any of you kind of have advice on how

33:20

people can process that kind of feeling they get when they don't feel

33:26

the the right number of people are reaching out that make sense what's the danger of social media there's there's

33:33

that too yeah I mean but that's the the people see that and try to been doing those comparisons and that's and that is

33:40

that trap here you were mentioning I think I think it's important to keep in mind we're all going through something

33:47

together as a big society there's there's a challenge that we're all

33:52

facing together but we're not necessarily all experiencing it the same

33:57

way and so it's worthwhile to keep in mind you know Rachael and Hawk both talked about all of these challenges has

34:04

come along with loneliness with with isolation but you don't necessarily have

34:09

all of those and it isn't necessarily the case that everybody is experiencing

34:14

depression the same way and everybody is experiencing maybe boredom or maybe a

34:21

need to get out of the house from their family members everybody has still their

34:26

own set of unique challenges that may change the way that they're able to to reach out not to mention their their own

34:33

interpersonal challenges that that may change their needs for for reaching out it's worthwhile to keep in mind that

34:39

that even though you may may be saying people are not reaching out to me enough

34:44

they're not wanting to spend time with me it really may not be the same set of challenges and and some people may need

34:51

that for a minder may need that that moment for for you to reach out to them to say hey I you know if you have any

34:58

time I would love to get together because it may not be crossing their minds or it may not be in their path

35:05

they may not be the first thing that they reach to when they need you need new things and it's both okay to ask for

35:12

help from your friends from your family it's okay to reach out and say I need this I need somebody to spend time with

35:19

that is perfectly acceptable and I think a lot of people are also in the place where they're ready to to help other

35:25

people when you ask for it because there's there's a need that also becomes fulfilled and being able to offer help

35:31

where a lot of people are in the position where they don't know what help they can do in a time like this maybe I

35:38

have reserves or maybe I have an opportunity to to feel like I can help my friend and I

35:43

have no idea how to do that so really being able to be willing to reach out to

35:49

to people to ask for what you need is a is a really important thing in a time

35:54

period like this I'm also a big fan of the concept of opposite action and sometimes when I'm feeling angry because

36:03

a friend hasn't reached out to me and my my what I want to do is be really passive-aggressive and not reach out to

36:09

them but really that's not gonna get me what I actually need right what I actually want me pushing somebody away

36:17

who hasn't reached out to me hurts everyone in that situation so what I need to do is recognize sort of a

36:22

mindfulness activity of recognizing my impulses that push someone away and then do the opposite action to that and

36:28

actually reach out and what Hawke was saying earlier around it doesn't have to necessarily be a big thing it's just a

36:34

hey I saw this and I thought of you right I have a I mentioned some friends that I'm reconnecting with because of of

36:41

kovat and I just see things on Reddit I like to be on reddit and there's lots of funny videos of kids saying and doing

36:48

funny things and my friend is a dad and so thought of you funny picture of a kid

36:53

singing a song with a guitar you know those things are really really valuable because they that's just a little thing

36:59

right it's a little thing and it's not necessarily saying I need help but it's saying it's just sending something out there hoping that they'll be like a you

37:07

know once again smiley face with a you know crying eyeball whatever that's so

37:13

funny I cried thank you but then also when reaching out to somebody when we're

37:18

trying to help one of the things that I think I got this from you Rachel I don't remember is the idea of a friend menu

37:27

when you're offering somebody help to say do you need anything is sometimes

37:32

too much for them to go I have there's a universe of expectations I don't know what I could possibly ask for but say

37:38

hey would you like to schedule a time to grab a drink would you like to you know you give them a limited set of options

37:44

and then they can say sure I'll take number two right if we want to keep it with gaming you'd be like here are six

37:50

options are all of these six and see if that's the one I think a good point that everyone seems

37:57

to be making is that it doesn't have to be elaborate to be effective so even if you're not feeling like okay I play a

38:03

Saturday gloom Haven game with my brother now which is very time six plus

38:09

time and you have to really set up we have to be committed but if that's not in your schedule you could watch a

38:15

stream for instance and have that alone together that you were talking about I know I am watching way more streams than

38:20

I ever did and it's a great way to connect with if you happen to know the person who's hosting the stream for the

38:25

community associated with the stream or just to have another voice in your house in the background talking about

38:31

something that you also care about yeah I had the revelation I think struck me

38:37

the other day when I was listening to a stream in that when you're playing an RPG and they this is for RPGs in

38:43

particular when you're playing an RPG I feel like you're kind of doing like so let's say three things at once one is

38:50

you're you're writing a story with your friends at the table two is you're

38:55

telling your part of that story directly you're being active you're being involved but three is you're listening

39:02

to the other people till they're part of the story and it you know maybe this was obvious to everybody else but it

39:08

occurred to me that when you're watching a stream you're doing that third thing like you don't have your turn your

39:14

initiative doesn't come up you don't kids let's say what you do but you're still like kind of doing half of the

39:20

active things that you're doing at the table and I think that that is one of the reasons why listening to streams

39:26

does feel appeal a lot I think to people who play a lot of RPGs I think it still

39:32

has that opportunity for shared language too which is very interesting in the same way that any show does if I watch

39:39

you know if I'm I watch watch The Witcher series on Netflix and I now can

39:46

have that conversation with with a friend of mine who's also watched the series we've created an opportunity for shared language with each other and any

39:53

stream also has that that sort of same shared space right Rachel you can you can sit down with a with a friend with a

40:01

friend but but from a large distance away from each other and you can both be watching the same

40:08

stream and in doing that you can you can spark discussion with each other and you can spark the opportunity to to share

40:15

language between something that's happened and that could be a funny thing but it could also be something that's just an interesting oh you know that

40:21

reminds me of a story that I that I should tell you about or an experience that I had and a lot of playing board

40:28

games is exactly that experience that it's it's a space that we can share that

40:33

we can use to build shared language but that we can also use to be able to jump

40:39

into entirely other topics of conversation and to be are our spark for for creating those things you were

40:47

talking earlier about wearing this together I mean this is all kind of cohort culture right when you watch the

40:53

same shows or you have the same interests you you know you watch the same games River and you can have that water cooler chat whatever it later with

40:59

somebody oh did you see this did you hear that etc latest album dropped etc gives you

41:05

that greater sense of belonging to a greater group than just yourself and

41:12

it's that whole chord effective if you look you know I've I've experienced you know my kids are now all their 20s and I

41:20

introduced them to a lot of the stuff from my cohort of shows from the 70s and 80s and her nighties did such that none

41:28

of their cohort had ever heard of but they would they would catch the referenced as their teachers were making

41:34

in school and though the teachers would be stunned that my kids knew the references to these shows and pop-culture

41:40

what-have-you really how do you know so my dad made me watch all this stuff and

41:45

it's that whole cold heart cold culture that we're having right now as this is happening you we're in this together

41:50

this is a global cohort experience that is going to have an effect throughout

41:57

the world everybody across all the different borders of culture you're just like you know World War one and World

42:03

War two you you the research from the people you have to take into account that cohort effect of how they're going

42:10

to look at the world and through what lens and the references and connections are going to have with other people and how to look at it there was a somebody

42:17

who's been something out there about if you were born in 1900 versus thousand and all the different things that you experience between nineteen

42:23

hundred and nineteen eighty verses two thousand two thousand twenty so for so far you know with World War one and and

42:29

smash flew and World War one and the roaring 20s and the Depression and World

42:36

War two and Korean War and Vietnam in the Cold War and just all these the gas

42:41

crunch I remember a sitting in line in California and ran out of gas waiting in line or the gas stations ran out of

42:47

gas and you know out of luck and and just you know that whole shared experience and that's something my

42:56

second life that we have my first wife was about five and F years younger and there was actually a little bit of a

43:02

difference there was a little bit of a disconnect in those experiences my second wife is two years older than I am

43:08

but we have a very close cohort experience so I could it's if people think we read each other's minds by

43:13

saying just one word but it's all that embedded reference and so we have that

43:19

now and it is definitely an opportunity to feel connected with the greater world

43:24

in a way that hasn't happened since World War two probably are you saying we're all going to come out of this

43:29

being really good on codename teams with each other for a specific set so we were

43:38

touching on this a little bit before about how things have changed in the past month or so and one of the things

43:46

that I wanted to discuss was now that different states and different regions

43:51

are starting to lift the lockdown generally in stages you know at different rates at different precaution

43:58

levels you know I wanted to talk how now that we have kind of adapted to one

44:04

circumstance and we're changing that circumstance and not everybody is

44:11

convinced about what the best approach is going to take do you have advice for people on how to navigate through this

44:19

process both you know for their personal mental health but also how they can kind

44:25

of work through that to maintain the kind of social connections that they want

44:32

I think one of the most important things to keep in mind is that it's gonna be a slow process and it's gonna be kind of a

44:37

two steps forward one step back process as well but III I'm not a disease

44:45

scientist but I have a lot of expectation that we're gonna open some things up and then maybe see that that

44:51

didn't go so well and close some things up again and and it's gonna be that back and forth so I'm I'm holding myself

44:56

ready for that that kind of process and what that means for me is is I'm not

45:02

gonna abandon the routines the the rituals that I'm setting up to help take

45:08

care of myself with the expectation that great things are things are open I'm gonna jump right

45:13

back into how how they used to be because I might be setting myself up for failure as things start to close back up

45:19

again and I have to re-establish a lot of those routines so instead what I'm going

45:24

to do is I'm gonna introduce new things and on a very sort of case-by-case individual basis without abandoning the

45:32

things that I'm using that to hold myself steady so my routines that I've

45:38

been going for walks in the morning with my wife in order to just have a little bit of time outside and they're there by

45:45

ourselves and away from everybody else but they really really help me a lot to feel like I'm getting out of the house

45:51

and that routines been become very important to me and if we as things start to open up a little bit more and I

45:58

might be able to finally have you know dinner with some friends at one of our house that would be amazing but I'm also

46:04

not gonna give up those walks in the morning with the expectation that I'm jumping right back into how things can

46:11

be I'm gonna keep in mind that that at any moment I might need to go nope we're

46:17

back to two in home isolation and and I'm gonna really really need those walks

46:22

again just as much as I did before so so I really encourage people to think about what routines are very important to them

46:28

and make sure that you're not losing those as you're introducing other other things in as things start to reopen

46:35

anybody else I'm not a Buddhist

46:40

I'll preface this if you really want to talk to a Buddhist you should have Jack Birkenstock from the bow down a grip on

46:46

here because he's much more fluent with these concepts than I am but I do think a lot of it has to do with expectations

46:53

and attachments that if we are attached to or expecting coming back to normalcy

47:00

we will be disappointed and we will once again it will be a process of grieving

47:05

and loss and you know overcoming the denial of that grief and loss process so

47:12

I think that we have to not be attached to the concept of normalcy and we have to be willing to anticipate whatever it

47:19

can happen next sort of an anticipation without expectation process moving forward and I think we have to sort of

47:26

take I mean I will I will like many of us sort of preach around taking that sort of RPG player approach whenever we

47:34

make plans in an RPG game you know you're gonna roll some dice and you know it might not turn out the best way and

47:40

having that sort of knowledge that not every single plan will go off as we

47:45

expect it to and how do we sort of plan ahead personally and outwardly to

47:51

accommodate for when those things need to change I think that'll be an important part of the process as well to not be I'm overly attached to that

47:57

positive outcome but willing to accept and navigate the situation when it doesn't turn out the way we hope will be

48:03

yeah I think the key point there is very much like not expecting that this will be great on Monday well the world will

48:10

be back to normal because it's probably not going to happen even if that's the day that things back open Beca but

48:17

Hawking and Rachel like to see what I you it's something that you wanted to say Rachel go first please I'm just

48:23

gonna say about kind of timing on what Adam Jones was saying about the routines

48:28

and for me it's about the ambiguity even if things start opening up I'm not like

48:34

totally convinced I should be going to Michael's and buying crafts I don't need

48:39

so I think for me it's about controlling the things that you can control the serenity prayer right like over the

48:45

things you can't control control the things you can if you have been wearing a mask outside just because things are

48:51

open doesn't mean you shouldn't maybe stick to that like Adam and Adam were saying things might also start to get cold back for me

48:59

that's the best way for myself to mitigate the anxiety and the ambiguity about everything that's still in flux

49:05

for the next three years apparently so I just want to make a point of we can't control everything but

49:12

we can't control something so just keep that in mind and control the things that you can't control you know so I think

49:19

love that it comes that we're basically going to have you know a little paradigm shift here as these events cause to

49:25

happen each time and one of them so I'm I'm one of these very high-risk populations I have extensive lung damage

49:32

I have to take a lot of immunosuppressants and such for the last ten years I'm very vulnerable but at the

49:39

same time I've chosen to still try to see my clients until you know but I have for a couple of decades developed a

49:46

health paradigm we're not touching my face and all that I did that decades ago and really thirty years ago when I was a

49:54

nurse's aide habilitation therapist and LPN trainee I was working on the death floor of a place called doc C hatch

50:00

where all the terminal patients went which also included HIV AIDS Tuberculosis things like that and and

50:07

you know level to personal tech equipment and such and really divided to

50:14

develop that habit it was shocked to see others who didn't outside or even in the nursing industry how few actually

50:20

followed the training and then as I got sick and got all this lung damage and now I'm super vulnerable is like well

50:27

okay yeah you know it's kind of annoying to have to be constantly on the guard for all these things but the alternative

50:34

is you know bug takes me out in a day and I'm done so so I made that kind of

50:39

shift you know especially ten years ago especially and it's in now we're seeing kind of the whole culture for the moment

50:46

is making that shift we'll have to see if it actually sticks I don't know if it's gonna actually stick long term

50:51

we'll see you know in Asia you do see some of that has been around for a lot of years because they've had to deal

50:57

with this more regularly because of the population density and Japan and others they they adapted their entire culture

51:04

around that density and so they made health paradigm shift a long time ago that many other

51:09

countries are this is a fairly new thing at this level but how much of its going

51:15

to stick you know how much of it is viable I don't know but I think it is this whole generation will at least once

51:22

you're old enough to appreciate this is going to have some kind of impact on a

51:27

health paradigm it's it's going to have an ongoing ripple effect and here's an

51:32

example part of our training with volunteers we have all these we have 20 different levels of game master trainees

51:39

and such for to do our programs and level 1 trainees one of them they learn to play an electronic role-playing game

51:45

just so they understand what it is and one of those neverwinter nights well the introductory adventure for Neverwinter

51:52

Nights is the plague and people dying in the streets at all of this and this last

51:59

session we did and someone hey somebody trigger warning here like oh ok yeah the

52:05

game was made in 2002 it's a big part of it but now people are going to have some

52:12

reactivity to this that we're gonna have to take into account for some of those that have experienced a more traumatic

52:18

version of this than for some others others they'll be resilient adaptive and it won't have that but others we're

52:24

going to keep that in account adding to the long list of things we have to watch for so and what you were saying and

52:32

manats we do with all the clients is with reaching out to people you can't control making others reach out to you

52:39

you're the only one you have some control over and putting yourself in situations where there's a better chance

52:47

of them reaching out to you you have control over and so getting on to sites

52:52

and groups and chat rooms and what-have-you where at least you increase the odds and most of my clients

52:58

our last chance like most of them have been they've made suicide attempts they're no longer responding to

53:04

medication what-have-you so they've kind of come to our program kind of as a last result is on the LLC side because and

53:10

luckily it's worked but most of them are already incredibly isolated they've really had trouble making friends they

53:17

are really uncomfortable reaching out and the main way was to find common interests right even if it's

53:23

doing it in the aggregate interactive pattern rather than interactive your long side people doing ceramics or what

53:30

have you cooking activities making so even if you're all online doing it in

53:37

parallel having that level of shared experience you at least clean yourself there we have the opportunity where

53:42

connections might happen you do have some control over that even though it can be very difficult to do for some

53:48

people and and with our programs we'll bring them in we might have start out one-on-one games and then we'll bring in

53:55

either a staff member or volunteer to be another player and then they get used to that process and kind of exposure

54:01

therapy approach and then we'll have them watch games like talking about the streaming and and such and then maybe

54:06

see about joining a game maybe and and then slowly add that step by baby steps right but what about Bob and but but you

54:15

do need to put yourself in the opportunity for people to reach out for you and that's very hard I've dealt with

54:21

depression myself and the last thing you really want to do is deal with people when you're that tired and cognitive

54:26

slow down and it takes a lot of effort and so to say this I know it's so much

54:32

easier than it really is but when working with clients this is what helps

54:37

them turn around helping give that little extra nudge of putting them in situations where they can have these

54:43

meaningful opportunities the key differences between attendance participation and engagement you can

54:50

have people show up and that's a first step at least we got them there that's something now we have potential

54:55

when they weren't there there was nothing we could do you get them to show up get their anxiety level down a little

55:00

bit make them feel like they're not gonna die number two is start to get them to engage so like drum circles and stuff you don't have to really talk to each

55:07

other but you can kind of just try it out but you don't have to make a personal connection you can do this in

55:12

this aggregate way in a drum circle and yet it's got this communal experience and then finally engagement where you do

55:19

turn and face each other and you start to make that more of that a deeper human connection but you wouldn't have had

55:25

that opportunity if you hadn't at least started with the attendance and then the participation and then now you can have

55:31

that engagement it doesn't feel like that's also the recipe and how it get your extremely Luddite friends to

55:37

finally join you for a game on line two just like hey just it's okay just hang out and chat okay

55:43

fine you've hung out in chat okay now maybe get your microphone working okay hey look here's a game you're ready to

55:48

go incremental exposure therapy and that's clearly worked with me my wife

55:54

where I started putting on vampire the masquerade streams and just I was watching them and she was playing Animal

56:00

Crossing in the room and eventually she was trying to impress me in score brownie points by being like oh is that

56:06

clam blah blah blah now I have her plan on a vampire game and she's doing a great job and having a lot of fun so

56:12

just it takes a while but it pays off there's a quote from Jacob Marino who is

56:18

the founder of psycho drama like I said my backgrounds in drama therapy and he said there's no such thing as resistance

56:23

in your clients it's just they're not warmed up yet and I've always liked that attitude of seeing that not an obstacle

56:30

but as a path to walk together so we have just kind of a few minutes left and

56:37

I think I have discovered the key to figuring out what we're gonna cover and if you look at the agenda if I put it in

56:43

the topic ground work section then we get through it and I put it in the advance stuff and we

56:50

just don't figured out how to understand but in the few minutes that we have left

56:56

is there anything else that anybody specifically wants to discuss it sounds like hawk might have a point that he

57:02

wants to make well I was I was just gonna say your timeout the warming another version is it can catch his TEDx

57:08

talk professor cults ko LTZ I think he's known the professors on compassion focus

57:17

therapy and sunshine went through some workshops and such for that and there's some TEDx talks and he talks about the

57:24

proper way to defrost shrimp right you know just take them out of the freezer and stick them in the microwave or cook

57:29

them whatever then they'll be all rubbery and won't work etc that you have to take time to go through the

57:35

defrosting the shrimp process and if you rush it you will not get optimal results

57:41

by far so we're related to that but I guess I mean I'd like to just make sure

57:47

people are aware of some resources and leaves everybody else put yours up there although we're trying to link to all of

57:52

yours too so RPG we church.com Forge slash events you can sign up for these free games we're putting them up like

57:57

tomorrow we've got a whole bunch of them available for a wide range of different role playing games for ages all the way

58:03

from four or five years old you know with parental support cuz it's remote but up to seniors and everything in

58:09

between also check out our boosters come forward slash community I'm scrambling

58:15

to fill that in that's where I'm putting all of your guys and stuff I already had all of yours on the older websites just

58:22

so you know I've linked to you guys as ever States you know any time I find somebody I try to help spread the word but I it's a new site new server so that

58:28

page is kind of a mess right now but if you have programs if you're doing stuff

58:35

to help others that they can engage in this way please email info at RPG

58:40

research com INF ORS research comp and we'll get you added to the list I've I've been reaching out to everybody for

58:46

decades putting them on this list around the world so that people then can find

58:52

resources in there and now people online is that much easier but still that's

58:57

where you can find it is through slash community and then there's a lot of other info but that you can find it on

59:03

the site there and so please do share to help each other out Adam John I guess

59:12

the the last thing that I really want to leave people with is is a little bit of

59:18

positivity that that a lot of the the changes that we're going to now a lot of the difficulty that we're going through

59:24

now have a lot of opportunity to really help us to remind us how much coming

59:30

together how much sharing a little bit with each other and how much having those a game

59:38

night with friends having a chance to connect with a family member over the phone how important those things are for

59:44

for ourselves and so there is there is a little bit of a for lack of a better term a silver lining to to a lot of the

59:51

struggles that we're going for it through now which is that you're learning how to take care of yourself in a better way and how to handle some of

59:59

the the pieces to this Hawk talked a lot about resilience and a lot of the the pieces of resilience are that you've developed a

1:00:05

lot of strategies for being able to handle the stressors and the challenges that are coming your way and so I encourage you to reflect on on maybe

1:00:13

this is hard but also take your successes where you get them take your your moments of like yeah but I got up

1:00:20

and I I took a shower today I said hi to the mailman I I got outside

1:00:28

and went for a short walk take those successes and remember that that this is a journey and you're you're

1:00:33

making your way down that journey of owning your success is a really really big and an important part of that

1:00:39

journey I will I will suggest a book for

1:00:45

people to read I actually picked up that period or this book before coronavirus even started because it's so relevant to

1:00:50

my work in my life it's called together by Vivek Murthy who is the former attorney general naturally general

1:00:56

Surgeon General of the United States and it's it's about loneliness it's about the pervasive loneliness and sort of the

1:01:04

epidemic that existed before coronavirus and i would i'm only you know part of

1:01:10

the way through it right now but it's so far been a pretty valuable resource so i can i can tweet about that i'll send a

1:01:15

link to it if you follow at game to grow I can share that if you are I don't

1:01:22

remember how to pronounce it to be big Marie you know I find lots of interviews with hymns on the healing power of human

1:01:28

connection perhaps that sounds that sounds right yes I should have had my

1:01:34

props here at the table but I don't have to worry I will pull up and push the good readings that's pretty true that in

1:01:39

chat that would be great that one I'm really enjoying right now because it he brings a lot of the right kind of tone

1:01:46

to match the seriousness of it but also has a generally optimistic attitude

1:01:52

about it which I really appreciate as well because we can get really doom and gloom about loneliness but I think it's

1:01:57

really useful to have sort of a scientific approach and a reminder that it is legitimate and that it is not a

1:02:03

weakness when we are sad because we're not feeling connected to people that's

1:02:08

not that's not just a personal issue that is the systemic issue it's a challenge that a lot of us experience

1:02:14

and to sort of normal is that that it is it is okay to not be okay to use thicknesses line it is that

1:02:22

is it's an it's a normal thing and it's an expected thing with all the way that a lot of how the way the society functions it is expected to be had a

1:02:29

hard time with that and I've I've personally found that very valuable both personally and professionally

1:02:34

you have to send a dollar donation now to take this now that you use there ya know I think I think they probably

1:02:42

appreciate as all nonprofits do I'm sure they appreciate the dimension contact me

1:02:49

if you need out send me an invoice all a small donation to take this great

1:02:55

tagline if you are interested in learning more about game to grow we are expanding our services to include more

1:03:02

training opportunities you can learn more about that a game to grow dot org I suggest you join our newsletter at game

1:03:08

to grow to org slash newsletter and we're also in the midst of having transition all eleven social skills

1:03:14

groups online for kids and teens mostly we're also building on that and going to

1:03:19

be expanding our online presence offering services outside just the state of Washington so if you'd like to learn

1:03:24

more about that please go to came to grow dot org slash groups and you can join and see what those what kinds of

1:03:31

offerings we will begin to offer around the country thank you

1:03:37

yeah so I just want to make a point I've been talking a lot to people about Cove

1:03:42

in nineteen and I hear a lot of people say you know well this person has it worse than me they're sick and I'm not

1:03:49

or I have food in my house and a lot of people don't and while that's absolutely true and it's wonderful to show

1:03:55

gratefulness for the things that we have it's also I don't want people to discredit the fact that this is a

1:04:00

heightened period of stress for everyone and it's okay to not be okay and it's okay to feel not great at the moment it

1:04:08

doesn't discredit people who are necessarily having it worse and if you want to learn more about take

1:04:15

this you can go to take this org we have a whole series now on cope in nineteen on our expert content section about

1:04:22

managing a team from home or how to mitigate fear self care when working from home which is really important

1:04:29

and you can also follow us on Twitter it take this work now am I correct that

1:04:35

each of your organizations does have opportunities for individuals who want to get directly involved in helping your

1:04:42

mission participate and all of your websites have ways for folks to contact you about that okay so if anybody is you

1:04:49

know watching or if they're lurking in chat as they're slowly warming themselves up to talking with us you

1:04:56

know check the websites if you want to kind of help some of these projects reach out to people and connect with

1:05:02

people and get through this your assistance what I'm sure will be appreciated but thank you to the four of

1:05:09

you in particular I really appreciate you spending the time with me again coming out here I hope that we'll have

1:05:16

the opportunity to talk with all of you again maybe at some point we will schedule a game that of our own and see

1:05:22

what kind of game we can get together but until then think all four of you very much for joining us thank you to

1:05:29

everybody who joined us to watch there were a couple people in chat who had

1:05:34

some very heavy stuff that they wanted to talk about so I wanted to thank them for taking the time to share that with

1:05:39

us I was very glad they were able to come and join us in chat and they felt comfortable talking through some of that

1:05:44

stuff and I hope that more people can join us in the future thank you everybody

1:05:49

stay safe reach out to your friends and enjoy the time you spend with them thank you